A Conversation Between Two Spiritual Teachers

ORIGINALLY POSTED ON ONE OF MY OTHER BLOGS AUGUST 10, 2012!

The following is some give and take conversation between myself and Zingdad (fellow spiritual teacher located in South Africa) about the subject of truth. I post it here as part of my blog simply as I think there might be some who could gain something from the discussion such as it turned out to be. This discourse was via email and occurred during the period of August 2-4, 2012.

I came across Zingdad through a repost someone did of a message that he had put up on the internet. I was prompted to contact him and try to get his interpretation of whether we might through the misuse of the label “truth” be perhaps bringing confusion to some who would be seeking after Light.

8/2/12 – Bill “Brother Asa” Taylor

Would like thoughts about the overuse of word Truth-Truth meaning that which is found to be As Is across all realities not subject to each individual’s interpretation. Perception that which an individual finds to be in that moment of now subject to mutation–”my truth”

8/2/12 – Zingdad

Hi

Thanks for making contact and thank you for the question.

This is a HUGE subject not easily answered in a few sentences. I have addressed it in my book, The Ascension Papers, where there is a whole very long chapter called “What is Truth”.

You make an interesting contention. You talk about “Truth meaning that which is found to be As Is across all realities not subject to each individual\’s interpretation.“

Can you point me in the direction of such a truth? Can you express a thought or an idea that is always the same, always true, never subject to doubt or disbelief in all realities? A thought or idea that is not in any way, shape or form subject to interpretation?

If you have found such a thing then I’d very much like to hear it!

The single greatest truth that I have ever been able to find is “The One IS” I believe this is always true from all perspective. Yet there are many that find themselves able to doubt the simple fact of the existence of the true, infinite and eternal Source of All. So even that, the most basic truth of all does not pass the test.

Would you like to propose one such a truth that can’t be debated or doubted?

So then here is my contention: All is One and The One is infinite. Infinite means no boundaries. This means that pretty much anything anyone might call “the truth” is just their temporary experience based upon the perspective they currently hold. So there doesn’t seem to be much that is objective truth other than “The One IS”. Beyond that there is only subjective truth. A good way to express that is “my truth”. This is what, right now, seems absolutely true to me. But, if we are intellectually honest we must be willing to admit that that which is “my truth” can change. It must be able to change or else we are going to cause ourselves spiritual damage as our experiences and inputs change and we refuse to grow our truth-sets with them.

Moreover, I contend that the search for “the truth” outside of ourselves is a fools errand. There is no truth outside of ourselves. We ourselves are sparks of the divine who are answering the question “who am I really?” If that is not an exerciser in finding your truth within yourself then I don’t know what is!

I thank you for the question. I hope my thoughts are of interest and value to you. I look forward to reading your response!

With love,

Zingdad

8/2/12 – Bill “Brother Asa” Taylor

Zingdad,

Thanks for your reply and let’s see if we can perhaps have a meaningful dialog about this issue. If I have it correct your contention then is that there can be nothing in all of Creation that is immutable simply because everything can be either denied, doubted, debated or questioned by a consciousness somewhere within Creation.

Interesting premise! Let’s then begin with something primal–I am other than the body. First, from a 3D physical perspective the observable it that this correct I am not the body. Quantum physics has now agreed that what we are is consciousness and that consciousness has been through experiments shown to be non-local. If then I am not the body but instead am consciousness then would not every person who sought out whether they were the body or not find the same answer? If then that is true at this juncture of existence then it will be the same regardless of what parallel universe or level of existence one would find themselves in as it takes consciousness to bring form to a bodily housing.

That can be debated, doubted, denied, or questioned but the fact will ever remain that you are not the body and instead you are consciousness. Such is an immutable fact or truth that will found to be so in the end. During the search for that truth you will encounter many perspectives surrounding the accumulation of knowledge until one reaches the point through observation there is no other alternative but for it to be as found to be. That is truth and will remain to be so throughout all of Creation as the foundation upon which Creation is formed is consciousness.

By the way thoughts and ideas are not the basis upon which truth is formed. Truth is formed based upon laws that operate underlying all that one perceives to be within Creation. The primary law is that all of Creation is mental or consciousness, if your will. The reason why I choose the subject to start this discussion with is that you are not your body and since I noted you were teach/learning about ascension that is one of the elementals upon which the process of ascension is based. Since all of Creation is consciousness or mental then you cannot be the body simply because you are Creation and Creation is consciousness.

You can debate, doubt, argue, question as much as you like but the statement that you are Creation is always a truth. In the end everyone will arrive at the same point that they KNOW they are Creation and Creation are they. It is the achievement of the knowing at the depth that cannot be defined that will constitute it to be a real truth.

The contention here is that Terran humanity uses the term truth not so much as it should be used but more in a generality of “close counts”. However, if one is to function in harmony with THE ALL then perhaps “close counts” isn’t good enough. If one is to co-create and manifest that which is truly desired then “close counts” is surely not good enough. To co-create one must come to a knowledge of what is truth and how do I know when I have discovered it; that then is the inner work that has to be done.

Truth in the Universal sense exists throughout Creation. What you describe as going inward to discover truth is more of the learn/teaching that is required to bring oneself to the point that you can become the observer of the observed sufficiently to be able to recognize truth when you find it. It is not that truth is found within; it is simply that recognition of truth can only occur within, not without.

You see when I speak of TRUTH, I truly mean TRUTH–that which is the fundamental underlying structure that constitutes Creation. The elements that makes up Creation and existence will not be found to be different by you and different by me for if it was found to be different then we would not be existing within the same Creation.

I hope that you will find my expression useful.

Brother Asa

8/2/12 – Zingdad

Hi Bill

Yes, I would certainly prefer a meaningful dialogue to a meaningless one! 🙂

Bill, if you don’t mind, before proceeding one step further, I would like to see where our common ground is. Discussing and debating without common ground is like wrestling in quick-sand.

Here is what is absolutely irreducibly true for me: The one truth, the one thing that is ALWAYS true, even when it is hidden behind many layers of illusion, is…

“All is ONE”

Can you agree with that?

If you can then we have a starting point. If not then I will have the choice to either 1. try to convince you of this or 2. abandon this discussion. It is my policy never to try to convince someone of anything so… 🙂

If you DO agree with me then do you agree that it is intuitively obvious that The One is truly INFINITE?

This point, as far as I am concerned is not debatable as it follows as night follows day from the statement All is ONE. But, if you agree with that first statement and are not sure of this second statement then I will be willing to share a discussion on this point to see if we can find commonality on it as well. If we cannot then I will have the choice to either 1. try to convince you of this or 2. abandon this discussion. But we’ve already been over this material so… 🙂

So, Bill, please be so kind as to humour me and let me know if you are with me on or not on these two statements:

All is ONE

The One is truly infinite

If you are, then I will have a clear idea of how to proceed with a response to your email.

With love

8/3/12 – Bill “Brother Asa” Taylor

Zingdad,

As I stated before a truth is immutable. Let’s approach it from this direction the One must be infinite for if it was not infinite it would be many or simply more than One. Since the All is One and One is infinite then All is One which also a carries forward into the All is infinite. Some what circular in statement but the underlying knowing clarifies the circularity. These are primal truths and it cannot be other than it is.

BTW, Asa is my given middle name, so either is fine. From the time I entered school until I went in the service everyone other than my family called me Asa, after going into the service it became common for me to be called Bill, short for William.

8/4/12 – Zingdad

Hi Asa

That was eloquently stated… and I agree completely.

I guess it is possible for someone to doubt that there is, beyond this realm of seeming separation, a great unifying Oneness. But I see that we very clearly have the common ground I was hoping for in this regard.

I agree furthermore that THIS is an immutable truth: “All is One”. As much as that is immutable it also, to me, irrefutably implies certain things. The first of those is that the All is infinite, as I am most pleased that you agree.

It also implies that all “parts” of the one are only illusorily apart from each other. Because, of course, there could not truly be separate bits if All is One. So the separations, divisions, boundaries and finite ends of any and all within The One are illusory. They SEEM to be so but they are not really so. For some time they appear to be real and true but they are, ultimately, found to be just experiences that we can have when we hold a certain perspective.

I’m sure you are still in agreement with me thus far?

And here comes my point about The Truth: that if we agree that The One is infinite then we must also agree that there can be no other ultimate rules or truth BUT that one. The ONLY truth can be is that The One IS. Because, you see any other TRUTH will come into conflict with that prime truth. Infinity brooks no boundaries. If there are boundaries then it is not infinite. A truth not only defines something but it also limits it. It says “this thing is THAT and it is never THIS”. Which is logically incompatible with anything that is infinite… no boundaries, no limits, no definitions… therefore no unchangeable defining truths.

Now you and I CAN experience limitations. That is the principal upon which a reality is composed. Reality. Real-ity. A place where this-and-that seems real. Not IS real… but seems real. Such as the separation that we experience in THIS reality. It seems SO real! But it isn’t. It’s just an illusion. In a similar fashion there are other realities that have been created within the infinite field of The Oneness that have other basic founding precepts (other temporary and illusory foundational limitations). They are each, in their own way, useful and entertaining for Us to experience and explore. But they are not TRUE. Not in the way you demand Truth to be. Because, although while We are within them, We do experience them to be real… when we leave these realities we realize it was just a temporary creation. Their rules and laws (truths) were just figments of Our creative imaginations.

So we can experience a limitation on infinity. But only as an illusion. Only as a transitory creation. Not as an eternally immutable fact.

The ONLY eternally immutable fact that I recognize is:

“The One IS”

Everything else is is a matter of creation that can be re-created differently or upon which We can take a different perspective. Everything else is an imbalance in the eternal field of the Oneness and is balanced out and cancelled out elsewhere else (“true” over here… not true over there).

So, if you are demanding only the most rigorous usage of the word “truth”, then there is but one truth I recognize:

“The One IS”

HOWEVER. I myself seem to be real. I really, really, really do! If I investigate this in every way possible to me then I can find no breach to the evidence that I seem to be real. This SEEMS true to me. So, for as long as I am me, then I have a truth about myself: I am real. I exist. This truth, it seems to me is a pretty high-order one. I really, really, really believe it. But it does seem to me that at SOME point somewhere, the “I” that I am imagining myself to be might return to The Oneness. So the “truth” that “I exist” seems to be a very little bit less true than “The One IS”.

So it seems to me that “The One IS” is the ultimate truth and “I exist” is MY truth. And so a distinction springs up.

Now I have no such truth about you though! My dear Asa, as interesting and fun as it might be for me to engage with you by writing all these little text characters on the screen, it is entirely possible for me to doubt your very existence. There is SOME evidence that you exist and that you are real. But last night I had a series of very real-seeming interactions with dream-characters and then I woke up and decided they were in fact NOT real. So… it is entirely possible that I am engaged in some much higher-level dream right now. It is entirely possible that you, and this conversation, are a figment of my imagination. So I do not have a truth about your existence. But it would not be useful for me to engage with you (or any other being for that matter) with the basic premise that you don’t exist! So I choose to concede that, in all probability, you are also another mote of The One who is also experiencing your own existence. I choose to accept that you have your own truth that is different from mine:

That YOU exist.

And so I allow for a second distinction. I accept that probably you have YOUR truth that is different from MY truth but that, ultimately, both of these are subordinate to the one TRUTH.

Now this is just the very simplest and most basic illustration of the concept but no matter how hard I try nor how deeply I delve I seem to come up with the same thing: there is just this one universal truth and then there are an infinite number of things that seem to be true from one perspective or another.

Allow me to further illustrate using your proposed truth that we are all ultimately CONSCIOUSNESS. You say this is the TRUTH – the eternally immutable kind. Okay. I say this is Truth of the transitory kind. What I mean is that I too have come to this very conclusion: that I am not my body (obviously) and also that what I am is actually immortal. So I like that conclusion. It seems to me that I am consciousness. You and I agree on that. But is it an immutable truth?

Let’s see, shall we? You proffer Quantum Mechanics as evidence. Okay. The problem there is that the theoretical physicists who are the ones actually producing the quantum mechanics theories… are atheists. Pretty much all of them. They understand the meaning of words such as “observer” differently from what you and I do. I don’t reeeeealy get their contention. Really I don’t. It seems to me that the result of their experiments MUST be pointing to the primacy of consciousness. My own spirit guide tells me that their science will continue to stumble in the dark indeed UNTIL they do recognize consciousness as a fundamental principle in the Universe. So you and I ARE on the same page here. But the point must stand that we are looking from a distance and coming up with conclusions that those who are actually DOING this science are not. So it doesn’t seem as if QM is as clearly pointing to the primacy of consciousness as all that.

And then… here is a little thought experiment for you. What if you and I met “on the other side” and discovered ourselves to be, as we had expected, to be beings of pure consciousness. Wonderful! Right? But then we meet someone who is much further advanced than we, the newly awakened “pure consciousness” beings that we now are, who tells us that there is a higher state of existence yet. We can, if we choose, let go of this attachment to consciousness and awaken to this even higher state. Avid searchers after growth and awakening that we are, we leap at it and we do this. We then discover that at this higher state we are much, much more than mere consciousness. We are something else entirely. Something, in some way that I now can’t imagine, truly limitless and sublime. We discover that “consciousness” is just the vehicle that we used for ourselves while playing WITHIN the separation reality we were previously in.

What then?

Is CONSCIOUSNESS still an ultimate truth? Or is it just that, from the perspective of those inside this separation-reality, that it might appear to be so as we awaken?

I know this is just a thought experiment. I know I can’t “prove” any of this to you. But that is exactly the point. If I dig hard enough then EVERYTHING turns out to be like this. EVERYTHING turns out to be just another story, just another set of thoughts and ideas. Nothing seems to have the kind of eternal validity that you are demanding the word TRUTH must imply. Nothing, that is, except The One IS.

Not from where I stand.

And that, my friend, is MY truth. It is for now. Because MY truth changes and grows as I do. Because I come to decide that truth IS mutable. It is the scaffolding upon which I build my own very being. And my inner being-building exercises are very energetic! 🙂 So I need scaffolding that can handle the changes without getting brittle and snapping. It updates as I learn new things and it morphs as I release old items that no longer serve me. So my truth-set changes. And as it changes so my experience of life changes. Because what is outside of me is nothing other than a mirror of what is inside of me. I don’t need to heal the world… I only need to heal my own beliefs. Which is my truth-set.

But I do not insist that YOUR truth should in any way support or match mine. So I accept completely that you might balk at all this “my truth” and “your truth” stuff. If that is wrong for you then that is okay. I do not need you to agree with me or to believe what I do or… anything. I don’t write to you to convince you. I write to you only because you asked and I see in you “another me”. It is my joy to engage you in conversation. It is my joy to share with you MY truth… even if you don’t like me calling it that.

With love,

Zingdad

8/4/12 – Bill “Brother Asa” Taylor

Zingdad,

I do appreciate that you are taking the time to indulge in these conversations with me. There are those of us who are striving to daily exist at these levels but we are spread out around the world making it difficult to have conversations such as this. From a personal perspective it is through conversations such as this, entered into with an open mind, that helps keep me from becoming trapped in a box of my own making.

For the casual observer what we may appear to be discussing would lie more into the arena of semantics—whether what we are doing is discussing whether the correct use would be to use the term “truth-sets” or “perceptions” but it is much greater than that. It is how we perceive and find where we are within the ALL.

We both agree that within the ALL there is a TRUTH—“ALL IS ONE”. If I have it right, originating from your precept of operating from truth-sets then one would have to allow that within the ALL there has to be the provision for the existence of everything. We have already agreed that ALL IS ONE is a truth, therefore, the existence for truth to exist within the ALL has been established. That truth would have to be, as expected as part of the ALL, infinite so as it would be found to be as truth everywhere within the ALL.

Having embraced that ALL IS ONE is infinite, therefore, it has to contain infiniteness then truth must be infinite as well since without truth being infinite ALL IS ONE being truth would not be infinite. That would seem to fulfill your position that there are infinite sets of truth. However, we also agreed that Truth was immutable since ALL IS ONE is immutable truth. There then seems to be a conundrum, a mystery, how can Truth be immutable and infinite at the same time?

To be honest I do not know! I can offer a different perspective that for me helps to alleviate the conundrum and that is that what we in this existence defined as “truth” is not truth as much as it is perception based on limited knowledge of ALL IS ONE. From that arises that since Truth exists within ALL IS ONE that is immutable then allowing for the existence of infinite within ALL IS ONE there has to be immutable truths.

The question then becomes how do I prepare myself to recognize these immutable truths when I encounter them? Say for instance would the Universal Law of Love be an immutable truth—Love is the greatest thing in ALL IS ONE and ALL IS ONE is Love or is it as you perceive it to be simply a truth-set with mutability? What then of the Universal Law of Polarity–within the ALL IS ONE opposites exist with infinite varying degrees between them? There is Light (knowledge) and Dark (lack of knowledge) with infinite varying degrees between. Which says that One, Prime Creator, Infinite Mind, Source of All That Is exists at one polarity and something exists at the other. If that is the law and that is as it will be found to be, is that not a truth and would it not be found to be that truth across all realities, dimensions, Universes, and whatever within the ALL IS ONE that we find ourselves?

The same would apply to the Law of One—we are All One, we are All part of one Energy, we are All of One Mind, we are ALL from One Source, The Infinite Mind, The Prime Creator, The Source of All That Is, That Which Was Not Manifested—would it not? Meaning is it not an immutable truth to be found and recognized as such. My question then goes to the heart of the search, is not what we are seeking is those very truths to become once more an integrated part of us? If so, then what I must do is prepare to be able to know when such truths have been found and not to dilute the intent of the search by obscuring what it is I seek.

Now we are to the heart of the matter. I ask that, if you would be so gracious, to help decipher whether these which I refer to as Laws are as they would appear to be, simply immutable truths, or are they merely illusory and there is no rhyme or reason to ALL IS ONE.

Much Love,

Asa

I posted this to Zingdad on 8/4/12 and I have received no reply. Should a reply subsequently come in then I will post it as an additional to my blog.

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